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For this week's Discussion Topic Journal, I think it'd be interesting to this time cover the different types of dere archetypes there are.
However, due to this journal being so long with only one archetype, I'm splitting it up into several.
Noticeably, when it comes to anime, characters can be described or pegged under a dere archetype. Creators tend to also describe their own character with these words.
Honestly, don't do that.
1. It's lazy writing.
2. It doesn't get into depths of your character.
3. Some people can be highly turned off by some of the dere archetypes.
4. It makes you sound like a weaboo.
Whenever you write a character, you should not peg them under an archetype, but actually describe them. Go into depths with them and talk about their personality rather than just be a lazy-ass. Now, I understand in notes you can write an archetype down, but only use that as a guide - expand from that.
However, I'm more here to give assessments on the different types of dere archetypes. I'm aware there are some I may have missed, however these are the ones I'm familiar with, and will therefore look at each in depth.
What I will assess with each archetype will be structured like so:
1. Characteristic description
2. Personal opinion
3. Bad examples
4. Good examples
5. How to rectify
Be aware that these are also my own opinions on these assessments. In no way do I also claim to be an expert: I'm just sharing my own opinion, and the Discussion Topic Journals were made just to share opinions and discuss these topics.
Now, shall we begin?
However, due to this journal being so long with only one archetype, I'm splitting it up into several.
Noticeably, when it comes to anime, characters can be described or pegged under a dere archetype. Creators tend to also describe their own character with these words.
Honestly, don't do that.
1. It's lazy writing.
2. It doesn't get into depths of your character.
3. Some people can be highly turned off by some of the dere archetypes.
4. It makes you sound like a weaboo.
Whenever you write a character, you should not peg them under an archetype, but actually describe them. Go into depths with them and talk about their personality rather than just be a lazy-ass. Now, I understand in notes you can write an archetype down, but only use that as a guide - expand from that.
However, I'm more here to give assessments on the different types of dere archetypes. I'm aware there are some I may have missed, however these are the ones I'm familiar with, and will therefore look at each in depth.
What I will assess with each archetype will be structured like so:
1. Characteristic description
2. Personal opinion
3. Bad examples
4. Good examples
5. How to rectify
Be aware that these are also my own opinions on these assessments. In no way do I also claim to be an expert: I'm just sharing my own opinion, and the Discussion Topic Journals were made just to share opinions and discuss these topics.
Now, shall we begin?
-----------------------------------
Assessment #1: Tsundere
Probably the most popular dere archetype, I decided to do it first because of that popularity, and also because there's quite a number to touch upon compared to the others, and I want to get this out of the way.
Tsundere is broken down into two terms that describe the character's personality. That is "tsuntsun" being harsh and irritable, and "deredere" being lovey-dovey. So therefore, a "tsundere" is basically a person who's cold and harsh at one moment, and can be loving and sweet in the next.
Guaranteed that in every anime, there's at least one tsundere due to them being highly popular in Japan. In countries outside of it, though, they're seen as base breakers at best, and scrappies (characters who are widely hated and have a huge hatedom) at most. This is also because of the humour being vastly different to that in Japan and tsundere are usually there to provide humour: noticeably, they're most common in harem and comedy genre anime.
OC creators, I notice, make their character go under the tsundere character archetype. However, what I've also noticed is that they don't realize there are actually two types of tsundere.
Type A: A class A tsundere is the typical one where their default mood is the "tsun" personality. They're harsh, snappy, easily irritable and the ones who would go "b-baka!" or some crap like that. It takes someone special to get them to show their "deredere" side. Easily the most common dere archetype out there.
Type B: A class B tsundere has their default mood on the "dere" personality. They're people who are, for the most part, quite nice. However, they also happen to have a hidden violent side that's usually triggered by the love interest via belligerent sexual tension or them being an accidental pervert. What differentiates them from a yandere is that if the Type B tsundere found out that their love interest has no interest in them, they'll either revert back to the default "dere" personality, or they want their love to pursue happiness, whereas a yandere is not good with rejection.
Adding to that, there are also three major sub-types in tsundere characters.
Sub-Type A - "Wolf-Girl": A tsundere who has problems with being honest with their feelings. They're also quick to judge their love interest, and usually uses violence in the situation concerning them. Bonus points if they call said love interest an idiot, moron, stupid or whatever. Probably also the most common sub-type for a tsundere.
Sub-Type B - Discipline: This tsundere is more inclined with the rules, and is strict with following them. Whenever etiquette or rules are breached, they're quick to blame the love interest and would also punish them for it. This in turn, would usually shock the love interest in a way of, "Why the hell are you paying more attention to me?!" To be honest, I think this one's the rarest sub-type.
Sub-Type C - Tragic Past: Unlike the top two, this tsundere is influenced from a sad background, which results in them having problems with understanding and expressing feelings. Approaching this tsundere is more delicate, and usually misunderstandings, whether they're good or bad, are quite commonly expected. Violence is often not associated with this sub-type, but it can be used.
Anyway, for my own personal opinion of the tsundere archetype?
To be perfectly honest, I'm not fond of most tsundere characters. At all.
Though they're the most popular dere character archetype, they're also easily the most flanderized.
Nowadays, most harem, comedy-romance or wannabe writer/artist make characters or usually include a character with the same damn formula. That is, a Type A tsundere who's in sub-type A "Wolf Girl" class and they hit their love interest or everyone around them.
This is by far the most common type, and having it done repeatedly without any proper substance or depth can wear viewers down: especially international audiences.
The following video generally explains why I really dislike most tsundere.
Assessment #1: Tsundere
Probably the most popular dere archetype, I decided to do it first because of that popularity, and also because there's quite a number to touch upon compared to the others, and I want to get this out of the way.
Tsundere is broken down into two terms that describe the character's personality. That is "tsuntsun" being harsh and irritable, and "deredere" being lovey-dovey. So therefore, a "tsundere" is basically a person who's cold and harsh at one moment, and can be loving and sweet in the next.
Guaranteed that in every anime, there's at least one tsundere due to them being highly popular in Japan. In countries outside of it, though, they're seen as base breakers at best, and scrappies (characters who are widely hated and have a huge hatedom) at most. This is also because of the humour being vastly different to that in Japan and tsundere are usually there to provide humour: noticeably, they're most common in harem and comedy genre anime.
OC creators, I notice, make their character go under the tsundere character archetype. However, what I've also noticed is that they don't realize there are actually two types of tsundere.
Type A: A class A tsundere is the typical one where their default mood is the "tsun" personality. They're harsh, snappy, easily irritable and the ones who would go "b-baka!" or some crap like that. It takes someone special to get them to show their "deredere" side. Easily the most common dere archetype out there.
Type B: A class B tsundere has their default mood on the "dere" personality. They're people who are, for the most part, quite nice. However, they also happen to have a hidden violent side that's usually triggered by the love interest via belligerent sexual tension or them being an accidental pervert. What differentiates them from a yandere is that if the Type B tsundere found out that their love interest has no interest in them, they'll either revert back to the default "dere" personality, or they want their love to pursue happiness, whereas a yandere is not good with rejection.
Adding to that, there are also three major sub-types in tsundere characters.
Sub-Type A - "Wolf-Girl": A tsundere who has problems with being honest with their feelings. They're also quick to judge their love interest, and usually uses violence in the situation concerning them. Bonus points if they call said love interest an idiot, moron, stupid or whatever. Probably also the most common sub-type for a tsundere.
Sub-Type B - Discipline: This tsundere is more inclined with the rules, and is strict with following them. Whenever etiquette or rules are breached, they're quick to blame the love interest and would also punish them for it. This in turn, would usually shock the love interest in a way of, "Why the hell are you paying more attention to me?!" To be honest, I think this one's the rarest sub-type.
Sub-Type C - Tragic Past: Unlike the top two, this tsundere is influenced from a sad background, which results in them having problems with understanding and expressing feelings. Approaching this tsundere is more delicate, and usually misunderstandings, whether they're good or bad, are quite commonly expected. Violence is often not associated with this sub-type, but it can be used.
Anyway, for my own personal opinion of the tsundere archetype?
To be perfectly honest, I'm not fond of most tsundere characters. At all.
Though they're the most popular dere character archetype, they're also easily the most flanderized.
Nowadays, most harem, comedy-romance or wannabe writer/artist make characters or usually include a character with the same damn formula. That is, a Type A tsundere who's in sub-type A "Wolf Girl" class and they hit their love interest or everyone around them.
This is by far the most common type, and having it done repeatedly without any proper substance or depth can wear viewers down: especially international audiences.
The following video generally explains why I really dislike most tsundere.
The problem is that most tsundere are written poorly. Creators rely on a cheap gimmick to expect audiences to like them because of familiarity with said cheap gimmicks. That is, they're most of the time, quite bitchy and they get upset over the smallest things, and solve it with violence.
I know that tsundere tend to be emotionally stunted at times, however that doesn't give the excuse to hit or degrade someone. Especially if the character they're hitting did absolutely nothing.
Now, here are what I find bad examples of a tsundere:
Case #1 - Naru Narusegawa [Love Hina]
(You may think she's hot, but wait until she punches the shit out of you, even when you didn't do anything.)
I know that tsundere tend to be emotionally stunted at times, however that doesn't give the excuse to hit or degrade someone. Especially if the character they're hitting did absolutely nothing.
Now, here are what I find bad examples of a tsundere:
Case #1 - Naru Narusegawa [Love Hina]
(You may think she's hot, but wait until she punches the shit out of you, even when you didn't do anything.)
I would've loved Love Hina if this bitch wasn't the main love interest. In fact I've seen people do the 10 most hated characters meme a lot, and if I had to do it (and maybe someday I will because it looks like good venting material), I would put this bitch as number 1, no question.
She's probably the incarnate of what I hate most in a tsundere.
I'll list it down before I end up ranting.
Horribly misunderstands situations (e.g. Mitsune was flirting with Keitaro and made him touch her breast so he could lower her rent cost, Naru saw, and Keitaro was blamed even though Mitsune was the one who did this shit); always accuses the main character to be a pervert even though he's the nicest guy on the planet (he accidentally walks in on Naru in the hot spring); always blames the main character for shit that's not even his fault and were genuine accidents despite the fact again - he's the nicest guy on the planet (too many times has Keitaro ended up tripping over as he's pretty clumsy and landing on her); BEATS him whenever he tries to explain himself so he never gets a word in it (too many times to count but a common sight is him flying or crashing through walls because of her punch).
Oh, and it also turns out she's the protagonist's childhood friend who he promised to marry.
I fucking hate this bitch. She can go burn. This is an example of how not to write a tsundere. Looks don't count for anything if she's a huge bitch who doesn't let the other party talk or explain their side of the story, and just hits them instead. Though she's not as flanderized in the manga, I still thought it too late to ever like or have sympathy for her.
She's abusive and she's judgmental - I hate her.
Case #2 - Lita Blanchimont [Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana]
(Only thing I didn't like in the game.)
She's probably the incarnate of what I hate most in a tsundere.
I'll list it down before I end up ranting.
Horribly misunderstands situations (e.g. Mitsune was flirting with Keitaro and made him touch her breast so he could lower her rent cost, Naru saw, and Keitaro was blamed even though Mitsune was the one who did this shit); always accuses the main character to be a pervert even though he's the nicest guy on the planet (he accidentally walks in on Naru in the hot spring); always blames the main character for shit that's not even his fault and were genuine accidents despite the fact again - he's the nicest guy on the planet (too many times has Keitaro ended up tripping over as he's pretty clumsy and landing on her); BEATS him whenever he tries to explain himself so he never gets a word in it (too many times to count but a common sight is him flying or crashing through walls because of her punch).
Oh, and it also turns out she's the protagonist's childhood friend who he promised to marry.
I fucking hate this bitch. She can go burn. This is an example of how not to write a tsundere. Looks don't count for anything if she's a huge bitch who doesn't let the other party talk or explain their side of the story, and just hits them instead. Though she's not as flanderized in the manga, I still thought it too late to ever like or have sympathy for her.
She's abusive and she's judgmental - I hate her.
Case #2 - Lita Blanchimont [Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana]
(Only thing I didn't like in the game.)
I enjoyed the game, however a big problem in it was one Ms Lita Blanchimont.
Though the main character, Klein, wants to save her because her lifespan gets decreased by the antagonistic alchemist, the romance is horribly shoved in and with Lita's character, I can't see how or why someone would be interested in her other than because she doesn't look bad-looking (like Naru). Lita gets pissy at Klein whenever he does nice things to other girls. And honestly, she shouldn't even have to be angry at his actions - he's just being a nice guy.
One example is when 13-year-old cat girl Norn is scared of heights - Klein offers to hold her hand so she doesn't get scared. Norn calls Klein sweet, and Lita gets pissed off at it! Look you bitch, Norn is 13 and Klein is 17: he probably only sees her as a little sister. Two, you seriously feel threatened by a cat girl who's only 13? Three, you've known Klein for a long time by now! He's a good guy who just likes helping people!
Not to mention she's so bitchy for no good reason, either.
Case in point, there's a shopkeeper who you can visit named Veola(who's awesome)</sub> and she's always a bitch to Veola just because Klein does nice things for her. For one thing, Klein gives books to Veola because she can't go out of her shop and travel far: one of the books is called "Magic in 7 Days" and Klein offers it to her. Lita then says "It's good for beginners like you." - FUCK...YOU...LITA. First of all, Veola runs a magic store - that's an insult to her intelligence and craft. Second, how condescending and nasty - I bet you were just saying that to make yourself look tougher and better: guess what? No, you look like an immature bitch.
It's not just that time, either - there are quite a number of times she's a bitch to people for no good reason whatsoever, and it's bullshit how nobody (but Klein only when she's a bitch to Veola) calls her out on it.
We're supposed to feel sorry for her in that she's the last of these humanoid creations, and she tried to kill herself, however her attitude was so over-bearing and so bitchy, that I didn't care for her anymore, and I just felt that that was just added in to make us actually feel sorry for her. Though suicide is definitely a serious and grim topic, it was just thrown in there, and I didn't want anything to do with Lita, anymore. And I wanted to lump her on somebody else if she continues to bitch at me for being nice to other girls and hitting me because I tell her to her face, "Why are you so angry at me? What did I even do?"
Case #3 - Jiwoo [Dandelion: Wishes Brought to You]:
(Don't think that I'm sexist anymore - male tsundere can be just as awful, too.)
So there, here are three cases where tsundere are bad examples. You must all think by now I hate all tsundere, right?
Actually, no.
I only hate most tsundere. However, tsundere can be quite interesting and even funny characters if they're written correctly or given depth.
So, I gave bad examples of tsundere, here are some I consider as good examples.
Case #1: Romano/South Italy/Lovino Vargas [Hetalia Axis Powers]
(And with using Romano as an example, I mean canon Romano by the creator, Himaruya Hidekaz: fanon Romano is a flanderized piece of shit.)
As a child, Romano showed more signs of a typical tsundere: that is hitting his caretaker, Spain, even though said caretaker didn't really do anything, and also screaming and even swearing a lot at him when he didn't understand him. However, the reason for why Romano was like that as a child is due to an inferiority complex. That is, he believed everyone loved his little brother more than him because his little brother was more talented and cuter, and he also believed their grandfather loved said little brother more than him, too - even taking his little brother on a trip while leaving him behind. As a result, Romano distanced himself from people believing the worst of them and that they just wanted him due to his inheritance from his grandfather.
However, as he grew older under Spain's care, as an adult, Romano noticeably doesn't display violence unless he's determined or provoked. For instance, he beat up his own mafia because they were trying to stop him from helping Spain, who once took care of him as a child. Though he does still swear a lot and has a bad temper, he's noticeably become more sarcastic and shows that he can be a hard worker as well. Also, he only shows his tsun side to men in order to make himself look tough and try to show who's top dog. With women, on the other hand, he shows his dere side and is nicer and gentler to them, which is a good variation of character: rather than just being snappy and a bitch to everyone around him (also it could be because of a lack of a female figure in his life: the only true female figure being Belgium, and she's a sweet-heart who he crushed on).
Sadly, his character gets horribly flanderized by fandom, making him nothing more than an insufferable typical tsundere who hits and degrades everyone he's with, even though he's nice and kind to women.
Case #2: Marie [Persona 4 Golden]
(Praise God! A female tsundere in anime that I actually like!)
Though the main character, Klein, wants to save her because her lifespan gets decreased by the antagonistic alchemist, the romance is horribly shoved in and with Lita's character, I can't see how or why someone would be interested in her other than because she doesn't look bad-looking (like Naru). Lita gets pissy at Klein whenever he does nice things to other girls. And honestly, she shouldn't even have to be angry at his actions - he's just being a nice guy.
One example is when 13-year-old cat girl Norn is scared of heights - Klein offers to hold her hand so she doesn't get scared. Norn calls Klein sweet, and Lita gets pissed off at it! Look you bitch, Norn is 13 and Klein is 17: he probably only sees her as a little sister. Two, you seriously feel threatened by a cat girl who's only 13? Three, you've known Klein for a long time by now! He's a good guy who just likes helping people!
Not to mention she's so bitchy for no good reason, either.
Case in point, there's a shopkeeper who you can visit named Veola
It's not just that time, either - there are quite a number of times she's a bitch to people for no good reason whatsoever, and it's bullshit how nobody (but Klein only when she's a bitch to Veola) calls her out on it.
We're supposed to feel sorry for her in that she's the last of these humanoid creations, and she tried to kill herself, however her attitude was so over-bearing and so bitchy, that I didn't care for her anymore, and I just felt that that was just added in to make us actually feel sorry for her. Though suicide is definitely a serious and grim topic, it was just thrown in there, and I didn't want anything to do with Lita, anymore. And I wanted to lump her on somebody else if she continues to bitch at me for being nice to other girls and hitting me because I tell her to her face, "Why are you so angry at me? What did I even do?"
Case #3 - Jiwoo [Dandelion: Wishes Brought to You]:
(Don't think that I'm sexist anymore - male tsundere can be just as awful, too.)
Tsundere isn't a female-only exclusive character archetype, male characters can be tsundere, too, however they're generally less violent due to double standard, which I'll cover in a future Discussion Topic Journal someday. Still, I actually hate or am indifferent to most male tsundere because while not physically abusive, they can be verbally abusive, and depending on circumstances, that can be much worse. That and my preferred type of guy is a genuinely cheerful and sweet, nice guy like Otoya Ittoki, Kazuki Hihara and Makoto Tachibana.
Jiwoo is an example of an insufferable male tsundere. Many may disagree with me, but I didn't like his character at all (though, I found myself not liking the majority of the characters in Dandelion: I found myself only liking four - the main protagonist, her human best friend, the antagonist, and Jihae who's the eldest out of the love interests).
He doesn't hit the female protagonist, however the things he says can get really nasty, and make most feminists reach for their pitchforks, as well as people wonder why the heroine would choose to stay with him. Also, I find myself getting angry at him rather than finding him endearing whenever he demands things from you even though you're letting him stay in your place: also, call me "dumbo" or insult my intelligence one more time, rabbit boy, and I'll slam you by the neck.
I also found myself not caring just because of how nasty his words can get (he should be happy the heroine is more tolerant: if it were me, I'd have given him a few choice words myself, and kick him out of my home). Another moment is how he gets irritated and sulks when he looks in the heroine's sketchpad without her permission and wants to rate all of her work (citing that she should feel honoured that he's giving his professional opinion on itfuck me...</sub>), despite her saying multiple times that she doesn't want that and to put it down or give the sketchpad back to her. As an artist, I'm fully on the heroine's side - that's private work, and you weren't given permission to look into it. You're invading her privacy, and she already said no several times. If that were me, I'd have lost my patience there and then.
Also, I know you've been through a lot, but that doesn't give you the excuse to be this spoiled, arrogant and stuck-up piece of shit that thinks he's better than everyone else, and that you're "blessing" or giving someone privilege by letting someone be in your company or take you out.
Jiwoo is an example of an insufferable male tsundere. Many may disagree with me, but I didn't like his character at all (though, I found myself not liking the majority of the characters in Dandelion: I found myself only liking four - the main protagonist, her human best friend, the antagonist, and Jihae who's the eldest out of the love interests).
He doesn't hit the female protagonist, however the things he says can get really nasty, and make most feminists reach for their pitchforks, as well as people wonder why the heroine would choose to stay with him. Also, I find myself getting angry at him rather than finding him endearing whenever he demands things from you even though you're letting him stay in your place: also, call me "dumbo" or insult my intelligence one more time, rabbit boy, and I'll slam you by the neck.
I also found myself not caring just because of how nasty his words can get (he should be happy the heroine is more tolerant: if it were me, I'd have given him a few choice words myself, and kick him out of my home). Another moment is how he gets irritated and sulks when he looks in the heroine's sketchpad without her permission and wants to rate all of her work (citing that she should feel honoured that he's giving his professional opinion on it
Also, I know you've been through a lot, but that doesn't give you the excuse to be this spoiled, arrogant and stuck-up piece of shit that thinks he's better than everyone else, and that you're "blessing" or giving someone privilege by letting someone be in your company or take you out.
Actually, no.
I only hate most tsundere. However, tsundere can be quite interesting and even funny characters if they're written correctly or given depth.
So, I gave bad examples of tsundere, here are some I consider as good examples.
Case #1: Romano/South Italy/Lovino Vargas [Hetalia Axis Powers]
(And with using Romano as an example, I mean canon Romano by the creator, Himaruya Hidekaz: fanon Romano is a flanderized piece of shit.)
As a child, Romano showed more signs of a typical tsundere: that is hitting his caretaker, Spain, even though said caretaker didn't really do anything, and also screaming and even swearing a lot at him when he didn't understand him. However, the reason for why Romano was like that as a child is due to an inferiority complex. That is, he believed everyone loved his little brother more than him because his little brother was more talented and cuter, and he also believed their grandfather loved said little brother more than him, too - even taking his little brother on a trip while leaving him behind. As a result, Romano distanced himself from people believing the worst of them and that they just wanted him due to his inheritance from his grandfather.
However, as he grew older under Spain's care, as an adult, Romano noticeably doesn't display violence unless he's determined or provoked. For instance, he beat up his own mafia because they were trying to stop him from helping Spain, who once took care of him as a child. Though he does still swear a lot and has a bad temper, he's noticeably become more sarcastic and shows that he can be a hard worker as well. Also, he only shows his tsun side to men in order to make himself look tough and try to show who's top dog. With women, on the other hand, he shows his dere side and is nicer and gentler to them, which is a good variation of character: rather than just being snappy and a bitch to everyone around him (also it could be because of a lack of a female figure in his life: the only true female figure being Belgium, and she's a sweet-heart who he crushed on).
Sadly, his character gets horribly flanderized by fandom, making him nothing more than an insufferable typical tsundere who hits and degrades everyone he's with, even though he's nice and kind to women.
Case #2: Marie [Persona 4 Golden]
(Praise God! A female tsundere in anime that I actually like!)
Marie is probably the first anime tsundere I've ever liked. But why? Why do I like her, yet hate most other tsundere girls with a passion to the point I'd beat the shit out of them?
Well, first of all, Marie, though displaying the similar bout of yelling at the protagonist, doesn't hit him. Already, that hits good points for me. I hate people who use violence on someone who didn't even do anything. She also doesn't verbally abuse him, and most of the time asks questions about her surroundings, if anything: and most of the time, she calls those things stupid rather than the protagonist who's her guide.
Another is that Marie doesn't look like a typical tsundere, either - most tsundere are associated with either long hair or pigtails. However, Marie has a more punkish style to her: I dig it - not a typical gimmick.
Finally, with your interactions with Marie, though she's quite blunt and really sarcastic, she never degrades or shouts at the protagonist unless you're reading her poems without her permission, and even then it's hilarious because she calls him something that's in the subject of her poem (meaning she writes said poems about him). And honestly, that's a justifiable reaction - reading your work, especially if you don't want others to look at it, is an invasion of privacy, and I'd get embarrassed and irritated if people just took my sketchpad without my permission. Also, she doesn't assume the protagonist got her poems (which most tsundere would likely do) - she just wonders how on earth he got it but doesn't blow up at it. She doesn't assume something stupid, which is good.
Another is that she apologizes when she snaps at you when she gets headaches. See, she's lost her memories, and she's on a little quest to try and remember who she really is. As a result, she goes through an existential crisis: that is, questioning her existence. When she does try and remember, she gets headaches, and it becomes difficult. I won't spoil anything else for her, because I do like and respect Marie's character, so I'll leave it at that.
The last thing I'll put up for Marie is that I love her game incarnation - there, sometimes her more tsundere-ish words such as calling you a moron are because you choose the dick-ish or stupid choices, so her response is justified because you're being an ass to her or disregarding her feelings. Her animation incarnation meanwhile, I'm not really so fond of because the tsundere tendencies are flanderized, and the protagonist is a bit of a jerk (but what the hell did I expect, anyway?).
Case #3 Helga Pataki [Hey Arnold!]
(Though that only anime characters can be tsundere? Nope, Western Animation can have 'em, too.)
Well, first of all, Marie, though displaying the similar bout of yelling at the protagonist, doesn't hit him. Already, that hits good points for me. I hate people who use violence on someone who didn't even do anything. She also doesn't verbally abuse him, and most of the time asks questions about her surroundings, if anything: and most of the time, she calls those things stupid rather than the protagonist who's her guide.
Another is that Marie doesn't look like a typical tsundere, either - most tsundere are associated with either long hair or pigtails. However, Marie has a more punkish style to her: I dig it - not a typical gimmick.
Finally, with your interactions with Marie, though she's quite blunt and really sarcastic, she never degrades or shouts at the protagonist unless you're reading her poems without her permission, and even then it's hilarious because she calls him something that's in the subject of her poem (meaning she writes said poems about him). And honestly, that's a justifiable reaction - reading your work, especially if you don't want others to look at it, is an invasion of privacy, and I'd get embarrassed and irritated if people just took my sketchpad without my permission. Also, she doesn't assume the protagonist got her poems (which most tsundere would likely do) - she just wonders how on earth he got it but doesn't blow up at it. She doesn't assume something stupid, which is good.
Another is that she apologizes when she snaps at you when she gets headaches. See, she's lost her memories, and she's on a little quest to try and remember who she really is. As a result, she goes through an existential crisis: that is, questioning her existence. When she does try and remember, she gets headaches, and it becomes difficult. I won't spoil anything else for her, because I do like and respect Marie's character, so I'll leave it at that.
The last thing I'll put up for Marie is that I love her game incarnation - there, sometimes her more tsundere-ish words such as calling you a moron are because you choose the dick-ish or stupid choices, so her response is justified because you're being an ass to her or disregarding her feelings. Her animation incarnation meanwhile, I'm not really so fond of because the tsundere tendencies are flanderized, and the protagonist is a bit of a jerk (but what the hell did I expect, anyway?).
Case #3 Helga Pataki [Hey Arnold!]
(Though that only anime characters can be tsundere? Nope, Western Animation can have 'em, too.)
Something that I've realized over the years is that when it comes to tsundere, Western animators are actually better at writing them in depth far more than aspiring anime companies (though they're not without their mistakes in other departments).
Hey Arnold! was a pretty old show that aired when I was a kid, but also quite nice, and was about the lives of these kids: a bit of slice-of-life. Helga was by far my most favourite character. She was funny, yet at the same time dramatic, and when you delve deep into her character, there's a lot of depth to her and how and why she is today which makes you want to hug her.
Though she's quite bossy, demanding and snaps at people a lot, for one thing, she'd never hit Arnold, her love interest. The person she hits is Brainy because he stalks her, and honestly, that's a natural response - if someone stalked you, you'd end up hitting them because that's just plain creepy, and you want them to get away from you.
Her love for Arnold is seen as both comedy and drama as when she's alone, she tends to be really emotional, and some of the lines more inclined to her feelings towards him lead to funny moments.
E.g. this gem:
Big Bob (Helga's father): "It'll make me a ton money, and what's good for me is good for all the Pataki's, if you catch my drift, Helga."
Helga: (to herself) "Alas, I ran again, torn between two forces. Arnold's foolish idealism...and my father's unbridled greed. And this time, I fear blood is thicker than water. Oh, curse the day I was born a Pataki!"
Helga is gifted with literature, and it's implied that she's actually extremely smart - probably as smart as her older sister Olga, or maybe more so because of her being far more cautious and careful (since Olga almost marries a conman in one episode). She also shows a more caring side when push comes to shove - to her best friend, Phoebe, and also to her sister, Olga, who she resented at first due to her parents neglecting her in favour of Olga: especially when Olga breaks down for not being perfect (though that was Helga's fault, Helga admitted her mistake and had a talk with Olga about it).
And the neglect of Helga's parents is one of the primary reasons why she is the way she is today - they favour Olga over her, and she's almost invisible. When Helga was in pre-school, they let her go to pre-school alone in favour of listening to Olga play the piano while gushing how she's already a valedictorian. Keep in mind that Helga would be only like 5 or something, and it was also raining at that time, too. During then, Helga is shown care from Arnold who shares his umbrella with her, gives her his crackers after someone else ate them, and even compliments her bow.
As such, Helga fell in love with Arnold, however she's seen to be tough and quite adverse possibly from her neglectful upbringing where she doesn't even call her dad "dad" but "Big Bob" which means that she doesn't see her own father as her dad. Despite being tomboyish, she frequently wears pink most likely because of Arnold, the first person to show her any care, said he liked her pink bow. The reason why she's adverse with Arnold though, is because she doesn't want to be humiliated or embarrassed in public, again possibly due to her tough upbringing.
That, and she's only 9-10 years old in the series: she's only a kid, and she wouldn't know how to deal with these emotions just yet. When she's growing up, she'll probably be doing far better as she is seeing a psychiatrist, Dr Bliss, and admitted her feelings of Arnold to her. That, and Arnold does know or at least have a feeling that she goes through a lot of crap at home and mentions that though she's mean, he knows she's really a good person, and that she's just insecure with her feelings.
Case #4: Ranmaru Kurosaki [Uta no Prince-sama]
(There, I'm giving more examples of what I think are good tsundere rather than bad to show I'm not completely biased.)
Helga in particular is still just a child, so it makes things more intriguing, disturbing and saddening how she became the way she is due to the neglect she gets from her parents. Plus, I can see people sympathizing with her - sibling relationships tend to have a rivalry at times, in some cases it's small and friendly, but in some cases it's resentment due to being unfairly treated by the parents, which is so wrong of a parent to do. Still, there is a lot of hope for her as she sees a psychiatrist of her own free will, and she'll probably mature when she gets older as her love interest, Arnold, is very caring and understanding of her - which is the care and understanding she needs.
Ranmaru may have a bit of a somewhat cliched past in being a rich kid who becomes poor, however what distinguishes him is that he continues on rather than bitch and moan about it like a spoiled, entitled princess. He tries to make money to pay off not only his family debt, but also the debt of an old couple he used to work for because they can't protect themselves from the yakuza who harass them. He is the way he is because of past failures where the bands he was in to try and make money all split apart from issues around women. Also, he had to deal with everything alone - his father's death, the massive debt left from his father, looking after his mother and sister: he had to do everything all by himself, which also explains why he's hesitant to work with others.
So, there - this ends my first assessment with the first of the dere character archetypes, and I'm exhausted from it...TT7TT
Questions:
1. What is your opinion on the tsundere archetype?
2. Have you ever tried to make a character that's of the tsundere archetype?
3. Is there a tsundere character that you like? How about a tsundere character you hate?
4. How would you feel if you were the love interest of a tsundere? Honestly, for me it depends - if they're a bad tsundere, I'd snap at them; point out their flaws; if they tried to hit me, I'd twist their arm; then I'd leave. If they're a good example, I'd be more patient, tolerant and understanding.
So for now, I end the Discussion Topic Journal. I apologize that it's not what you'd probably really expect, but this one had plenty of things to touch upon and discuss. The next one might have more than one of the dere archetype, but we'll just see.
I can't shove every dere character archetype in this one, or it'd be too long, so please, bear with me.
Next Time:
The Many Types of Dere Pt. 2 - Yandere
Hey Arnold! was a pretty old show that aired when I was a kid, but also quite nice, and was about the lives of these kids: a bit of slice-of-life. Helga was by far my most favourite character. She was funny, yet at the same time dramatic, and when you delve deep into her character, there's a lot of depth to her and how and why she is today which makes you want to hug her.
Though she's quite bossy, demanding and snaps at people a lot, for one thing, she'd never hit Arnold, her love interest. The person she hits is Brainy because he stalks her, and honestly, that's a natural response - if someone stalked you, you'd end up hitting them because that's just plain creepy, and you want them to get away from you.
Her love for Arnold is seen as both comedy and drama as when she's alone, she tends to be really emotional, and some of the lines more inclined to her feelings towards him lead to funny moments.
E.g. this gem:
Big Bob (Helga's father): "It'll make me a ton money, and what's good for me is good for all the Pataki's, if you catch my drift, Helga."
Helga: (to herself) "Alas, I ran again, torn between two forces. Arnold's foolish idealism...and my father's unbridled greed. And this time, I fear blood is thicker than water. Oh, curse the day I was born a Pataki!"
Helga is gifted with literature, and it's implied that she's actually extremely smart - probably as smart as her older sister Olga, or maybe more so because of her being far more cautious and careful (since Olga almost marries a conman in one episode). She also shows a more caring side when push comes to shove - to her best friend, Phoebe, and also to her sister, Olga, who she resented at first due to her parents neglecting her in favour of Olga: especially when Olga breaks down for not being perfect (though that was Helga's fault, Helga admitted her mistake and had a talk with Olga about it).
And the neglect of Helga's parents is one of the primary reasons why she is the way she is today - they favour Olga over her, and she's almost invisible. When Helga was in pre-school, they let her go to pre-school alone in favour of listening to Olga play the piano while gushing how she's already a valedictorian. Keep in mind that Helga would be only like 5 or something, and it was also raining at that time, too. During then, Helga is shown care from Arnold who shares his umbrella with her, gives her his crackers after someone else ate them, and even compliments her bow.
As such, Helga fell in love with Arnold, however she's seen to be tough and quite adverse possibly from her neglectful upbringing where she doesn't even call her dad "dad" but "Big Bob" which means that she doesn't see her own father as her dad. Despite being tomboyish, she frequently wears pink most likely because of Arnold, the first person to show her any care, said he liked her pink bow. The reason why she's adverse with Arnold though, is because she doesn't want to be humiliated or embarrassed in public, again possibly due to her tough upbringing.
That, and she's only 9-10 years old in the series: she's only a kid, and she wouldn't know how to deal with these emotions just yet. When she's growing up, she'll probably be doing far better as she is seeing a psychiatrist, Dr Bliss, and admitted her feelings of Arnold to her. That, and Arnold does know or at least have a feeling that she goes through a lot of crap at home and mentions that though she's mean, he knows she's really a good person, and that she's just insecure with her feelings.
Case #4: Ranmaru Kurosaki [Uta no Prince-sama]
(There, I'm giving more examples of what I think are good tsundere rather than bad to show I'm not completely biased.)
At first, I did hate Ranmaru, but that was in his debut, which was a shitty game I'd rather forget and was poorly received due to how shitty it was as it looked like blatant fanfiction writing by rabid yaoi dumbasses. There, Ranmaru was a misogynistic asshole who declares that women shouldn't be part of the music industry (again, seems like fanfiction written by a rabid yaoi dumbass).
His attitude however gets rectified and redone in the second game he appears in. Subsequently, he became far more likable and sympathetic. There, he's more of a lone wolf tsundere instead of a misogynistic asshole. Though he's snappy and quite stern with people in general, he shows respect to people who know what they're talking about, and who show genuine interest with the industry. Case in point when he warms up to the protagonist, Haruka Nanami, after she displays knowledge not only in music, but various sound equipment as well, and also seeing how much effort she puts in what she does (she's a composer).
He used to come from a rich family and his father dies from overwork: leaving him to take care of his mother and sister as they're left with a massive debt (though where they are, I'm not sure, as he lives alone in a crappy apartment). Noticeably, him being a rich kid that falls out of grace sounds a bit similar to Jiwoo, however unlike Jiwoo, Ranmaru tries to earn money to pay it all off and just keeps on going. Sadly, all the bands he's been in fall flat due to problems related to women (i.e. relationships causing rifts between band members; groupies; etc.). He does end up getting scouted and is now an idol, but it's left him distrustful with working with people due to misfortunes of his band experiences, and also from always having to bear the weight of his family's problems on his own.
Also, though his family still has a debt, Ranmaru actually uses his idol savings on an old couple who run a restaurant he used to work at. The old couple are in debt of yakuza, and he is able to pay off their loan, thus causing the yakuza to back off from badgering the poor old people anymore. When he reverts back to tsun mode at Haruka, it's because he beat the shit out of a loan shark that was targeting him (which is highlighted as a scandal in newspapers) and he's afraid she'd get targeted by said loan shark, so he tries to disassociate with her. Thankfully, she comes to him and they talk things out in the end, as he's willing to listen.
Plus, he feeds stray cats and lets them in his apartment. XD
Overall, the main problem with tsundere is that they're prone to flanderization. There are times it involves unnecessary hitting. That isn't considered okay with most audiences outside of Japan - it's considered abuse, and it's not funny. Especially because female-on-male abuse is usually not reported due to society's expectations of men, which is bullshit.
That's what makes the tsundere gimmick of hitting people distasteful: especially if either you're a victim of physical abuse, or you know someone who's been physically abused.
It's not funny, it's hurtful and traumatizing.
And it's not just physical abuse, either. Verbal abuse can be just as scarring, and it's considered worse in some circumstances. While physical scars can heal, emotional scars can take much longer - especially if the victim has been in it for an extensive period.
Another is that tsundere can sometimes not be written in depth, which has them rely on their gimmick of the "typical tsundere attitude" plus the hitting. It shows a shallow, typical character that doesn't deserve sympathy. Another is that even when a tsundere has emotional problems and a past that may explain said attitude, if they either don't realize that it's not right and try to rectify it, or their attitude is so heavily flanderized, it alienates the audience who just think of them as immature for not moving on, or causing the audience to just not care for them anymore - hell, I've seen some people even go, "Serves you right - you're a bitch. You deserve it for being such a bitch." And honestly, that's a very bad mindset to have, and something you don't want when it comes to your characters.
When a tsundere is written correctly, they can be very compelling characters with hidden depths. They can be funny, but they can also be serious in showing either:
a) How to not treat people
b) There's a limit with how far your attitude can go
c) The harsh reality on how a person ended up the way they are
d) How a person can move on and be better people from their initially bitchy attitude
e) All of the above
My advice is to be in depth with the character: that is, show that they're more than just a tsundere - have them have likes and interests, but at the same time, do not flanderize the tsundere's attitude. Because Jiwoo had a hobby of liking trashy romance novels and Korean drama, however his attitude was so bitchy and the things he said can even be hurtful to soft and sensitive souls, that it made me not care at all for him as a character and at times made me want to even just beat him into oblivion.
Also, have the tsundere character have a life outside of the love interest. Show more depth that they're again, not just a gimmick or a shallow character: show they do have a life outside of bitching at their love interest. Marie wants to learn about herself, and questions about the things around her to the protagonist as she's not familiar with the human world. She also makes friends with the protagonist's friends, and has a nice time with them as they accept her into the group.
Finally, if you want to use a past that may explain your character's tsundere behaviour, either be subtle or be logical and careful with it. Helga and Ranmaru have pasts that are more interesting to talk about and are better written.
His attitude however gets rectified and redone in the second game he appears in. Subsequently, he became far more likable and sympathetic. There, he's more of a lone wolf tsundere instead of a misogynistic asshole. Though he's snappy and quite stern with people in general, he shows respect to people who know what they're talking about, and who show genuine interest with the industry. Case in point when he warms up to the protagonist, Haruka Nanami, after she displays knowledge not only in music, but various sound equipment as well, and also seeing how much effort she puts in what she does (she's a composer).
He used to come from a rich family and his father dies from overwork: leaving him to take care of his mother and sister as they're left with a massive debt (though where they are, I'm not sure, as he lives alone in a crappy apartment). Noticeably, him being a rich kid that falls out of grace sounds a bit similar to Jiwoo, however unlike Jiwoo, Ranmaru tries to earn money to pay it all off and just keeps on going. Sadly, all the bands he's been in fall flat due to problems related to women (i.e. relationships causing rifts between band members; groupies; etc.). He does end up getting scouted and is now an idol, but it's left him distrustful with working with people due to misfortunes of his band experiences, and also from always having to bear the weight of his family's problems on his own.
Also, though his family still has a debt, Ranmaru actually uses his idol savings on an old couple who run a restaurant he used to work at. The old couple are in debt of yakuza, and he is able to pay off their loan, thus causing the yakuza to back off from badgering the poor old people anymore. When he reverts back to tsun mode at Haruka, it's because he beat the shit out of a loan shark that was targeting him (which is highlighted as a scandal in newspapers) and he's afraid she'd get targeted by said loan shark, so he tries to disassociate with her. Thankfully, she comes to him and they talk things out in the end, as he's willing to listen.
Plus, he feeds stray cats and lets them in his apartment. XD
-----------------------------------
Overall, the main problem with tsundere is that they're prone to flanderization. There are times it involves unnecessary hitting. That isn't considered okay with most audiences outside of Japan - it's considered abuse, and it's not funny. Especially because female-on-male abuse is usually not reported due to society's expectations of men, which is bullshit.
That's what makes the tsundere gimmick of hitting people distasteful: especially if either you're a victim of physical abuse, or you know someone who's been physically abused.
It's not funny, it's hurtful and traumatizing.
And it's not just physical abuse, either. Verbal abuse can be just as scarring, and it's considered worse in some circumstances. While physical scars can heal, emotional scars can take much longer - especially if the victim has been in it for an extensive period.
Another is that tsundere can sometimes not be written in depth, which has them rely on their gimmick of the "typical tsundere attitude" plus the hitting. It shows a shallow, typical character that doesn't deserve sympathy. Another is that even when a tsundere has emotional problems and a past that may explain said attitude, if they either don't realize that it's not right and try to rectify it, or their attitude is so heavily flanderized, it alienates the audience who just think of them as immature for not moving on, or causing the audience to just not care for them anymore - hell, I've seen some people even go, "Serves you right - you're a bitch. You deserve it for being such a bitch." And honestly, that's a very bad mindset to have, and something you don't want when it comes to your characters.
When a tsundere is written correctly, they can be very compelling characters with hidden depths. They can be funny, but they can also be serious in showing either:
a) How to not treat people
b) There's a limit with how far your attitude can go
c) The harsh reality on how a person ended up the way they are
d) How a person can move on and be better people from their initially bitchy attitude
e) All of the above
My advice is to be in depth with the character: that is, show that they're more than just a tsundere - have them have likes and interests, but at the same time, do not flanderize the tsundere's attitude. Because Jiwoo had a hobby of liking trashy romance novels and Korean drama, however his attitude was so bitchy and the things he said can even be hurtful to soft and sensitive souls, that it made me not care at all for him as a character and at times made me want to even just beat him into oblivion.
Also, have the tsundere character have a life outside of the love interest. Show more depth that they're again, not just a gimmick or a shallow character: show they do have a life outside of bitching at their love interest. Marie wants to learn about herself, and questions about the things around her to the protagonist as she's not familiar with the human world. She also makes friends with the protagonist's friends, and has a nice time with them as they accept her into the group.
Finally, if you want to use a past that may explain your character's tsundere behaviour, either be subtle or be logical and careful with it. Helga and Ranmaru have pasts that are more interesting to talk about and are better written.
Helga in particular is still just a child, so it makes things more intriguing, disturbing and saddening how she became the way she is due to the neglect she gets from her parents. Plus, I can see people sympathizing with her - sibling relationships tend to have a rivalry at times, in some cases it's small and friendly, but in some cases it's resentment due to being unfairly treated by the parents, which is so wrong of a parent to do. Still, there is a lot of hope for her as she sees a psychiatrist of her own free will, and she'll probably mature when she gets older as her love interest, Arnold, is very caring and understanding of her - which is the care and understanding she needs.
Ranmaru may have a bit of a somewhat cliched past in being a rich kid who becomes poor, however what distinguishes him is that he continues on rather than bitch and moan about it like a spoiled, entitled princess. He tries to make money to pay off not only his family debt, but also the debt of an old couple he used to work for because they can't protect themselves from the yakuza who harass them. He is the way he is because of past failures where the bands he was in to try and make money all split apart from issues around women. Also, he had to deal with everything alone - his father's death, the massive debt left from his father, looking after his mother and sister: he had to do everything all by himself, which also explains why he's hesitant to work with others.
So, there - this ends my first assessment with the first of the dere character archetypes, and I'm exhausted from it...TT7TT
Questions:
1. What is your opinion on the tsundere archetype?
2. Have you ever tried to make a character that's of the tsundere archetype?
3. Is there a tsundere character that you like? How about a tsundere character you hate?
4. How would you feel if you were the love interest of a tsundere? Honestly, for me it depends - if they're a bad tsundere, I'd snap at them; point out their flaws; if they tried to hit me, I'd twist their arm; then I'd leave. If they're a good example, I'd be more patient, tolerant and understanding.
So for now, I end the Discussion Topic Journal. I apologize that it's not what you'd probably really expect, but this one had plenty of things to touch upon and discuss. The next one might have more than one of the dere archetype, but we'll just see.
I can't shove every dere character archetype in this one, or it'd be too long, so please, bear with me.
Next Time:
The Many Types of Dere Pt. 2 - Yandere
Manly Genshin Impact
I finally got my pen nibs! Q7Q just as work is starting to get a bit more intense. orz That being said, I've also been playing Genshin Impact. Fun game. Reached Adventurer Rank 16 and played a bit of co-op with some really nice and helpful people. Wanted to draw some stuff for it but I kind of just want to draw OC's or make some designs because as much as it's got an interesting story and it's been fun so far...where's my beef? There's skinny twinks everywhere and little kids. That ain't much fun for me, and not really giving me an incentive to pull on the Wish system even if the characters are apparently good? XD there are some hot ladies in there who'd be fun to draw I guess (like Lisa) but by now, most of you know my style. I want me some man candy. Beefy man candy, man. I mean, I guess I can beef up Kaeya (who's probably so far my favourite). It's even possible to beef up the Ameno Traveller and make him less twiggy. XD But yeah, if you have any ideas for a beefy
Q+A - Favourite Gym Leader from Each Region?
And yes, that includes Trial Captains, not Kahunas though, as I'd put Kahunas as part of Elite 4 since they're around that level. >u>;;
Q+A - Favourite Starter Pokemon?
Just wondering, out of interest, what is your favourite starter Pokemon? Namely, the first stage, but mid and final evolutions are also nice to know. =^^=
(Grass-types: Bulbasaur, Chikorita, Treecko, Turtwig, Snivy, Chespin, Rowlet, Grookey
Fire-types: Charmander, Cyndaquil, Torchic, Chimchar, Tepig, Fennekin, Litten, Scorbunny
Water-types: Squirtle, Totodile, Mudkip, Piplup, Oshawott, Froakie, Popplio, Sobble)
Status Update [3-12-19]
So it's been a while since I made one of these entries but hello there, guys! Hope you're all having a good one.
I namely put up this status update because as of tomorrow and up to the 16th of December, I will probably not be online or have Internet access because I'll be on a cruise until then. We'll stop by at New Zealand at one point, and that should be a day or two where I can get Internet, but majority of the time, I probably won't have any.
If I can wind up getting Internet during my time onboard, that'd be great, but until then, if I don't get Internet, hope you guys have a great one, and see you just before Christmas! :D
Cheers!
© 2015 - 2024 Hebigami-Okami-77
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You know, looking at this journal now, I think my non-fandom OC might be a tsundere; emphasis on "might". Type B and plays it straight, but she's an extremely odd example of the type B tsundere trope. For instance, she bickers with Romano and England a whole lot, sometimes hitting Romano if he had offended her in some way or if the bickering escalates to physical violence), but she does have compassion and sympathy for him, and will even admit it explicitly when asked. Same goes for England (minus the hitting, though). The reason why I think she could be an "extremely odd' example is that honesty and sincerity are two of her best personality traits; so if she says that she cares about England and Romano, then she truly does and means it without doubt. In other words, she is way too nice and friendly for the flanderized tsundere gimmick to be put on her (I'm more worried about how fanfic writers are gonna portray her, not that I'd expect any anytime soon. XD).
However, there is one instance where the tsundere trope is averted; Prussia. My OC really hates his guts through and through. However, if given a choice to save Prussia who is bleeding excessively or leaving him for dead, she would most likely choose the former because she is mature enough to know that Germany will worry and will become severely depressed if he dies, which will be the only reason she will say if Prussia makes a smirking remark saying that she does care for him (even though she clearly doesn't and says so without doubt).
Like I said, she is an extremely odd example of this trope, I can't really tell if it is a good or bad example (in-between, maybe?).
However, there is one instance where the tsundere trope is averted; Prussia. My OC really hates his guts through and through. However, if given a choice to save Prussia who is bleeding excessively or leaving him for dead, she would most likely choose the former because she is mature enough to know that Germany will worry and will become severely depressed if he dies, which will be the only reason she will say if Prussia makes a smirking remark saying that she does care for him (even though she clearly doesn't and says so without doubt).
Like I said, she is an extremely odd example of this trope, I can't really tell if it is a good or bad example (in-between, maybe?).